Immigration and Cultural Identity with Aida Zilelian: This Week on TALK by Turner

This week on TALK by Turner, we're joined by first-generation Armenian-American writer and educator Aida Zilelian. In this conversation, Aida discusses the current state of immigration in the United States as well as how she has navigated her own cultural identity as a first-generation Armenian-American.

Aida Zilelian is the author of All the Ways We Lied (Turner Publishing Company/Keylight Books) and The Legacy of Lost Things, recipient of the 2014 Tololyan Literary Award. Aida has been featured on NPR, The Huffington Post, Kirkus Reviews, and Poets & Writers. Her short story collection, These Hills Were Meant for You, was shortlisted for the 2018 Katherine Anne Porter Award.

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Geoffrey Colon: This week on TALK by Turner, I'm joined by Aida Zilelian. Aida is a first-generation American-Armenian writer and educator. She's the author of the book The Legacy of Lost Things. Aida Zilelian is a first generation American-Armenian writer and educator. She is the author of The Legacy of Lost Things. She’s the recipient of the 2014 Tololyan Literary Award. Aida has been featured on NPR, The Huffington Post, Kirkus Reviews, and Poets & Writers. Her short story collection, These Hills Were Meant for You, was shortlisted for the 2018 Katherine Anne Porter Award. I'm your host, Geoffrey Colon, and you're listening to TALK by Turner. TALK by Turner dives deep into intellectual discovery while examining what's happening in our world right here, right now. Join us each week to hear from industry experts and published authors as they share their knowledge and insight on today's most important topics. Now, let's see who's on this week's episode. Aida, welcome to TALK by Turner.

Aida Zilelian: Thanks for having me.

GC: All right, so you've written about your own personal experiences, you know, growing up as a first-generation Armenian American and how your family had to navigate between two cultures. Growing up is something a lot of people have to do. Has your understanding of how you fit within American and Armenian cultures changed as you've gotten older? And if so, in what ways?

AZ: So I was really immersed very much. It has changed. I was immersed in Armenian culture growing up. Both my parents were immigrants. My mother is Lebanese Armenian, my father is Romanian Armenian. After the genocide, this is where their family settled, although my mother's side I don't think was too affected by the genocide and my father's side was completely wiped out. And so I was raised really immersed in Armenian culture. I went to school five days a week. I went to Saturday school and I went to Sunday school. And so for me, I don't even think I was encouraged to have American friends. And so it was very black and white and it was very extreme. And now, you know, many years later, I've really come to realize that it is up to me, right, to figure out what parts of my culture to embrace, what parts of American culture I embrace. And that like really these there's a lot more gray area than people realize until they get old enough and they kind of like break away from their parents and figure themselves out, which is what I was able to do.

GC: So it took basically, I guess, adulting or becoming an adult to sort of figure out which what resonated with you and what didn't.

AZ: Yes. And completely breaking away from the culture. And I really did like it was I was, I played guitar and I sang for Quite a while before I decided to really seriously dedicate myself to writing. I always wrote, but I. Yeah, I was like. I played solo guitar and I wrote songs. And, like, that's when I really departed from Armenian culture. And I think it's when my first book was published and I was interacting more with Armenian communities and organizations because they were featuring the book that I slowly moved back in. And it's interesting because a lot of my friends who are Armenian now are writers, and that's the way I was able to return to my culture.

GC: Is there a certain style of music that you gravitated toward? I have to ask.

AZ: Well, what I played and what I listened to may not have necessarily been the same thing, because I really was like, into the Cure and Susie and the Banshees and the Smiths and also Metallica. But my music. I don't know if you know who Elliot Smith is.

GC: Yeah. Huge fan.

AZ: Yeah, I am. I'm obsessed with Elliot Smith. I was into PJ Harvey, so I would say. I would never say that I'm anything near them. But if we're talking about genre, then I'm kind of like a cross between PJ Harvey and Elliot Smith as far as, like, how I approach my songwriting.

GC: Yeah, that's not a bad intersection to be in when you think of true artists like that.

AZ:  Yeah.

GC: So a question on immigration policy. It's front line news today here in the United States. It's had a complicated history over the, you know, last six decades. You know, of course, without immigration, we wouldn't really be the country that we are. So I'm curious, as a first-generation American, you know, how do you view the US and its relationship to immigrant communities?

AZ: Well, it's definitely about to change even more than it has. Right. And it's interesting. Who are the presidents? It was who was running against Bush? Remember seeing a clip from the 80s and the two candidates were talking about Mexico. Okay. And what they were arguing about was, I'm gonna be able to do this for the Mexicans who come here. No, no, but Abe. And they were actually debating on who is going to do more for these immigrants.

GC: And yeah, I think the interview you're referring to, not to. Not to cut you off, is was. It was George Herbert Walker Bush debating Ronald Reagan before they both teamed up and ran on the same ticket. I. I just watched that video. Yeah.

AZ: Oh, so. Right. And so here we are. And we don't have to get too political. I'm also a high school teacher. Right. And so when he came into office. The first time we had students in our building removed and sent back. And I remember there were three girls, specifically, I think they were Ecuadorian and they were brilliant girls. And so I see this. And they were getting so much out of living here, but they weren't legal, they were sent back. And to say it's upsetting as an educator, as a first generation, because honestly, all of us came from the immigrant experience. But it's so easy for Americans to forget that when they're fifth generation or fourth generation. And although I live in New York, I do find that there are the stereotypes and the stigmas and I don't want to say false beliefs, but there's so much gray in there. The attitude towards immigrants is depending on who you're talking to is much more negative than you would realize. We're not living in this safe bubble even in New York. Right. So that's how I want to respond to that question without getting too political.

GC: Yeah. How do you take the background that your background as an Armenian American, that sort of all the experiences you've gone through and how do you, how do you apply that to sort of the world that you navigate now in the 21st century?

AZ: That's really hard. That's a really hard question. Because it’s very present in my writing and it's very present in how I teach. Because I teach in a very diverse school in Queens. I've been a high school teacher for 22 years in teaching literature. So as an educator, I'm always striving to teach diverse literature and overlooked and marginalized cultures. I feel like in the literary world those cultures are celebrated. And I'm so happy for that because a lot of what I write about, I think that my writing would be completely different if I wasn't first generation. And it doesn't just apply to Armenians, but just anybody from a first generation culture. So I try to be more sensitive to my students, if that's even possible. That's one way. And it pushes me to be even more open minded and understanding of cultures that I may not even be informed about the way that I should. Yeah.

GC: It leads me to my next question because you hinted on language and language isn't it, you know, it's incredibly important. And recently there's been an executive order that's been signed that that's made English the official language of the United States. So I'm curious on what your reaction is to this in terms of having an official language where we really didn't have an official language prior.

AZ: I mean, I understand the concept of an official language. I mean, on paper it doesn't sound terrible to have an official language if you think about other countries that have an official language. But I think that because of where it's coming from, it negates other cultures, other languages. I don't know if I don't think I would feel so negatively about it if it was a different administration. I mean, and that begs the question of, does every country need an official language? I guess because it's part of our identity and we do speak. But you know, I'd love to know the percentage of Spanish-speaking people, but we are really a melting pot. I mean, I'm conflicted about it because on paper it makes sense, but where the theory from which it comes from feels very exclusive and, and prejudiced.

GC: Thinking of exclusivity, how have you approached stereotypes? How have you navigated that terrain in terms of, you know, being being a first generation American? How have you sort of seen things where you're like, wow, I want to, you know, I want to sort of call that out, or I want to navigate that in a way that empowers others. How have you, how have you used that to navigate sort of the obstacles?

AZ: I mean, again, I'm going to talk about teach like, Armenians are such a small culture that there aren't really. Someone teased me. All you guys do is sit around and eat kebab. It's like, yeah, we eat kebab. But like stereotypes, it's not necessarily that they're inherently wrong, but the fact that no one can see beyond that. Yes, Armenians do eat a lot of kebab. Okay.

GC: Yeah.

AZ: But there's also a lot of other. There's also a lot more than just kebab. And you know, also you have the diaspora Armenians here and you have the Armenians from Armenia, and they have their own stereotype. And what I could say is that stereotypes may come from a real place, but when you use it as the defining way of making assumptions when you meet people. And again, thank God I teach in New York because it helps me from making immediate assumptions. I think I'm guilty of it without meaning to be. And I make a point of not being that way with my students, of assuming anything about them, because again, being first generation. My parents had no high school, they had no education. Okay. So that's a part of it. And when I first started teaching, I taught in Long Island City. I taught next to the two biggest housing projects in Queens. So you have Ravenswood and Queensbridge. And I've lived in, I worked in a building with 5,000 students, six floors and three security guards. And so after coming out of that and starting as a, as a special ed teacher, they kind of just threw me in out of license. And then I, by the time I left that school, I was teaching AP Literature. And you see these kids showing up Croatian and Yugoslavia and their parents don't even speak English and these kids are reading Machiavelli. You know, it just destroys any stereotype you can have about a first generation black brown. I mean, and the things that people would say to me, we're so insulting to these minorities. And I would say to them, like, you have no idea what you're talking about. No idea. Because just doesn't matter where you come from, it's what you do with what you come from.

GC: I think thinking of inclusivity, which is a nicer topic, and how social media plays into that, how it's pretty much easier than ever to connect with people across the world. Would you say that Internet culture and social media are positive forces or are they negative forces in terms of encouraging cross-cultural communication and understanding?

AZ: You know what, that's so subjective because. Right. Everybody. That's really hard to say because everybody is looking at something. It's like affirmation bias. Right. The things that I'm looking at are going to say that it supports inclusivity. Even as something as simple as, you know, when I'm submitting a piece of work, it'll say, like, if you are underrepresented and marginalized under, you know, this is up. We're gonna, we're gonna waive the fee, for example. Right. And so you submit enough times to these literary journals and you feel that. So it really depends on where you're looking on social media, because that really dictates what happens in your feed. So I would say, yeah, absolutely, sure, absolutely. But somebody who doesn't have my political leanings, you know, they may be looking at something else that does not support what we're talking about here.

GC: Yeah, let's talk about your book, All the Ways We Lied. What's a good takeaway that could help people be more empathetic to folks from different backgrounds and different countries that you wrote about in the book?

AZ: Well, I'll tell you, I mean, I think growing up. I've said this before. I don't know where I got the idea growing up that mental illness was more of an American thing. Not because I looked down on Americans, but because it was just never mentioned in the Armenian community. Narcissism, you know, personality disorders, depression, like that stuff was really taboo. You never talked about that kind of stuff. And I think that's very traditional of collectivistic cultures. Right. A lot of my students pants do not support therapy, for example. So the biggest takeaway, if you're going to really, like, put it in layman's terms, is that no culture is immune to mental illnesses. No culture is immune to dysfunctional family dynamics. And those are the two things that my. That. That novel really speaks to.

GC: Do you think that or. You know, what's your advice for anyone who is struggling with navigating between two cultural identities right now, especially in this current environment that we're in?

AZ: I would say to ignore the way you were raised, if you can at all, and ignore what's going on in the world and figure out what your virtues are and what's important to you and what defines you as a person. Right. Like, what does it mean to be Armenian? That's for me to choose. Is it that I speak the language, which I do? Is it that I want my daughter to understand it at least and speak. Yes. Does it mean that I cook the food? Right. So you just have to figure out. It's very hard when you're raised, a traditional way of figuring out what is it what I wanted, or is it what my family and my parents wanted? And. And I know adults who still have not figured that out, and they've moved on and taken the traditional path. And I wonder for them if this was something they did consciously or. Or if it was just something without question, that they just made these decisions. It's about really figuring out who am I, what's important to me, and what does it mean to be American? What does it mean to be from this culture and embracing that without fear?

GC: You know, that was going to lead to my next question, which is, was there a particular moment in your childhood that you had to directly confront your identity as an army, as an Armenian American? Like that sticks out to you, that.

AZ: You can recollect, you know, what it was not an. Not a moment. But it was in my adolescence. That's really when I started breaking away because my parents had a very dysfunctional marriage and my friends came from families, and you could tell it was very Typical. It wasn't. No. It wasn't, like, dysfunctional. It was just very typical. Like, stereotypical. And I grew up really understanding that behind closed doors there was something very, very wrong. And the kids I grew up with. And I think that that's when I realized that or I thought that there's no way I could be part of this Armenian culture that I know because my family is too dysfunctional for me to have a sense of belonging in my culture. My family is not like other Armenian families. I don't belong in this. This was. This was really how I thought. And once I started playing guitar and music, forget about it, because at that point, I was in my early 20s. A lot of the women my age had graduated college. They moved on to a serious relationship. They were getting their masters. They were choosing these really solid career paths, and they were getting married and having. And I wasn't having any of that at all. Like, none of it.

GC: Interesting. What's one thing that you'd love for listeners to take away from the conversation today?

AZ: That. That's a great question. What they could take away from this conversation. Well, especially because of today's climate, you need to lean in and write about or express yourself in any way you want about feelings of being marginalized, underrepresented, canceled, silenced, and that now more than ever, it is really important. And even if it's the uglier parts of our culture, it doesn't matter as long as you are creating something that's giving voice to your identity. Identity is more important now than ever. And to not shy away from expressing those parts of yourself.

GC: Aida Zilelian, she's author of the book All the Ways We Lied. Where can we find you online?

AZ: My website's aidazilelian.com and I do have a poetry chapbook collection coming out in June. I just won a contest for that. I'd return to poetry in February, so that will be posted on the website. You can find my book on the Turner website, as well as Amazon and Barnes and Noble and local Queens bookstores. It's available everywhere.

GC: Aida, thanks for joining us on TALK by Turner.

AZ: Thank you. Thanks for having me. TALK by Turner, hosted by Geoffrey Colon. Watch and listen now wherever you enjoy podcasts.